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Koude Oorlog Fortificaties te België

Algemene discussie over Belgische fortificaties
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derlub

Koude Oorlog Fortificaties te België

Bericht door derlub » 24 sep 2010, 18:25

Hello.

My name ist Christoph, I am from germany (Aken) and I am sorry to say, that I can't speak or write dutch. So I hope it is allright for this community, to ask in english respectively in german.

Does anybody know something about a Bunker for the Provinciaal Commando Antwerpen that was built in the cold war period in or nearby Lier?
I found the following information in german Stasi-intelligence Papers about western civil an military command posts:


"Ort: Lier
Art der Führungsstelle: Gefechtsstand (Krieg) der Provinzialverwaltung Antwerpen
Schutzgrad: Massenvernichtungsmittel
Anlagen:
-oberirdisch: Eingeschossiges Gebäude für technische Anlagen zur Sicherstellung der Bunkeranlagen.
-unterirdisch: Teilversenkter Bunker, Eingeschossig, Arbeitsräume, 2 Schlafräume, 1 Raum für technische Anlagen. Filterventilationsanlage, Trinkwasserversorgung aus Tiefbrunnen, Druckresistenz: 1MPA; Personalstärke: 50 Personen; Max. 100 Personen; atonome Arbeitszeit: 14 Tage."


I am thankful for any further information.

Tot ziens,
Christoph
Laatst gewijzigd door derlub op 29 sep 2010, 10:41, 1 keer totaal gewijzigd.

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Re: Koude Oorlog Provinciaal Commando Antwerpen te Lier?!

Bericht door ErwinZ » 24 sep 2010, 21:45

Hi Christoph, welcome to the forum. English is no problem here. And otherwise you can ask AW to translate everything :D

Tom Oliviers

Re: Koude Oorlog Provinciaal Commando Antwerpen te Lier?!

Bericht door Tom Oliviers » 26 sep 2010, 14:12

Hello,

I live in the area of Lier, there are lots of Belgian bunkers, a fortification addon to the KW-line from before the beginning of the second war. Most bunkers in lier are still there... But for a bunker from the cold-war period, i do know nothing... i can search for it though, do you have any idea where this bunker could be build?

best regards

Tom

derlub

Re: Koude Oorlog Provinciaal Commando Antwerpen te Lier?!

Bericht door derlub » 26 sep 2010, 21:05

Tom Oliviers schreef:... i can search for it though, do you have any idea where this bunker could be build?
Thanks. I only know the information "Lier" about the location.

Bye,
Christoph


mechelsbruggehoofd

Re: Koude Oorlog Provinciaal Commando Antwerpen te Lier?!

Bericht door mechelsbruggehoofd » 27 sep 2010, 20:16

Hello,

as Tom mentioned, there is a variety of existing fortifications in the Lier area,
from the 19th century up until WW2.

Since the belgian common sense led us to re-use these older buildings for new purposes,
my guess would be that such a cold war bunker would have been in a fortress.

You can see an example here (for another belgian province, East-Flanders) :
http://www.bunkergordel.be/14.028%20Com ... 20Gent.htm
The cold-war structure was made in a pre-ww2 command bunker, which in turn took advantage
of a pre-existing dutch fortress : recycling was invented here !

If you are interested, another impressive whitness of the cold war can be found deep under Mount Kemmel:
http://www.westhoek.be/info/ned/jewaser ... welkom.htm

Tom Oliviers

Re: Koude Oorlog Provinciaal Commando Antwerpen te Lier?!

Bericht door Tom Oliviers » 27 sep 2010, 22:18

Hi Mechelsbruggenhoofd,

You are right, now you say that, i heard years ago that both the fortresses of Walem and Lier are re-used as Cold-war command centers !!

It is Fort Lier that was the command post!!

I simply forgot and Mechelsbruggenhoofd let ring the bell in my head ;-)
(i know to much and sometimes i forget stuff that i allready knew :twisted: )

regards

Tom

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Re: Koude Oorlog Provinciaal Commando Antwerpen te Lier?!

Bericht door BunkerOwner » 28 sep 2010, 13:03

What a nice object this is.
Looks nice to visit some day.
A lot to discover at this location.

derlub

Re: Koude Oorlog Provinciaal Commando Antwerpen te Lier?!

Bericht door derlub » 29 sep 2010, 10:38

Hello.
WimVe schreef:Wel dezeeffkens snel gevonden.
Thanks, especially the use in cold war period ist very interesting.
mechelsbruggehoofd schreef: Since the belgian common sense led us to re-use these older buildings for new purposes,
my guess would be that such a cold war bunker would have been in a fortress.
Thanks, so your assumption was right. The Commandobunker for East-Flanders was new to me.
Kemmelberg I knew already but I have not been there yet.
Tom Oliviers schreef: You are right, now you say that, i heard years ago that both the fortresses of Walem and Lier are re-used as Cold-war command centers !!
It is Fort Lier that was the command post!!
Very interesting. Fort Walem does also exist in the Stasi-intelligence papers. More about that in a seperate posting.

I decided to rename this thread, because now we do not only dicuss about Lier as maintopic but also Walem, Eaest Flandres, Brussels an Kemmelberg ;)

Bye,
Christoph

derlub

Re: Koude Oorlog Fortificaties te België

Bericht door derlub » 29 sep 2010, 11:00

And now to Fort Walem.

Following information were given in the intelligence papers:

"Ort: Mechelen
Koordinaten: 51 03 41N, 04 27 48E
Art der Führungsstelle: Gefechtsstand (Krieg) des Zivilverteidigungsstabes von Belgien.
Schutzgrad: Massivbau
Anlagen:
-oberirdisch: Oberirdische Bunkeranlage des ehemaligen Forts mit verstärktem Dach.
Bemerkungen: Seit 1981 laufen Maßnahmen zur Verbesserung der Nachrichtensicherstellung und zum Schutz vor Massenvernichtungswaffen um die Führungsstelle zum Informationszentrum der Regierung im Krieg auszubauen. Automatisiertes Führungssystem REGETEL
(or BEGETEL?!). Zentrale Auslösung der Sirenen im Land."


If these information were true, Fort Walem could have been a shelter with central importance in belgium.

Bye,
Christoph

P.S. If anyone needs a translation from german to english, I can try it.

mechelsbruggehoofd

Re: Koude Oorlog Fortificaties te België

Bericht door mechelsbruggehoofd » 09 okt 2010, 23:29

Hello,
concerning Fort Walem, it has indeed been used by the "civil protection" service,
mainly as a stockpile for vehicles and massive amounts of gasmasks,
supposedly to be distributed to the population, in times of gas attack.
The masks remained there to this day, decaying over time.

Only now, with the fort being, partially, handed over to nature,
the masks (littereally thousands of them) are being gathered and removed.
It was also the ideal terrain for training the civil protection rescue dogs.

The fort, which i have visited several times, has 1 major radio-antenna, (mast type),
an indication of some communications activity, probably also by the Civil Protection.

None of the guides however, mentioned any major "cold war command" activity.

derlub

Re: Koude Oorlog Fortificaties te België

Bericht door derlub » 10 okt 2010, 11:19

mechelsbruggehoofd schreef:None of the guides however, mentioned any major "cold war command" activity.
Hello.

Because the Stasi-documents were inofficial information from the enemy side it is very likely that there are incorrect parts in it.
Maybe they had the information, that the Fort was used für the Civil Protection and because of some additional information they draw the conclusion that this must be a command post. Or it was indeed planed to be a command post but never realised.

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Re: Koude Oorlog Fortificaties te België

Bericht door WimVe » 10 okt 2010, 11:31

Well, if there was/is a radio-antenna it is worth finding out where the apparatus stood.

If I was a guide and nobody tells me that there is a bunker underneith, I would tell the guests that there isn't one. So that doesn't cover the story.
If the entrance is bricked and covered with ground you easilly can miss it.

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